From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Dec 11 16:18:58 2011 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Dec 2011 21:18:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RZqnS-0004Qr-OE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 11 Dec 2011 16:18:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RZqnQ-0004Qi-JC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 11 Dec 2011 16:18:57 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RZqmJ-000159-6P for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 11 Dec 2011 16:17:48 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:49503) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RZqmJ-000155-4m for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 11 Dec 2011 16:17:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55056) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RZqmI-0001ch-DC for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 11 Dec 2011 16:17:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RZqmH-00014t-Gj for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 11 Dec 2011 16:17:46 -0500 Received: from mail-ww0-f49.google.com ([74.125.82.49]:41286) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RZqmH-00014n-7Y for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 11 Dec 2011 16:17:45 -0500 Received: by wgbdt11 with SMTP id dt11so7943963wgb.30 for ; Sun, 11 Dec 2011 13:17:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=4IGMwrSbBTNlYHJscnFFs8faJDahTZeLDn7uXj0kicY=; b=KBZFqXeT7R1ggAswK4Mn0VvaE3knLqwQka84dkP4goJ5jmCGslst+dYICpPH/B2DdI ZLqZjFEC0Mn7A85XP35cD9P9qTQlLm3KAvDmcnkpyE0Fc9NmLytVLeulmT70SHxfU+iC ZEGKQ/2iXAnVbzw4VIXFwANTkLE5fHubBHhWg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.60.4 with SMTP id n4mr12682090wbh.9.1323638263527; Sun, 11 Dec 2011 13:17:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.170.138 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Dec 2011 13:17:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 23:17:43 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: 24.0.91; memory leak when using vm From: emacs user To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) In GNU Emacs 24.0.91.1 (x86_64-apple-darwin11.2.0, NS apple-appkit-1138.23) of 2011-11-25 on MacBook-Air.local Windowing system distributor `Apple', version 10.3.1138 configured using `configure '--with-ns'' when using vm, emacs grows in size every time I read my inbox, and eventually crashes. garbage-collect has no effect. memory-usage.el gives the output below, I would be grateful for any hints on how to identify the problem... [at the time of this report, emacs grew to about 200mb (using activity monitor on the mac). it's initial size was about 30mb. ] \Garbage collection stats: ((470940 . 228143) (128755 . 1) (348632 . 1073) 9089641 3274519 (123 . 1083) (4119 . 14324) (691547 . 38503)) => 7535040+3650288 bytes in cons cells 6180240+48 bytes in symbols 13945280+42920 bytes in markers 1968+17328 bytes in floats 230664+802144 bytes in intervals 22129504+1232096 bytes in string headers 9089641 bytes of string chars 9089641 bytes of vector slots Total bytes in lisp objects: 68131680 (live 62386856, dead 5744824) Buffer ralloc memory usage: 10 buffers 10404 bytes total (9887 in gaps) Size Gap Name 568 1572 *Buffer Details* 20 2045 *Echo Area 1* 17 3 *Custom-Work* 5 2020 *code-conversion-work* 0 20 *scratch* 0 2037 *Minibuf-1* 0 20 *vm-nonexistent-summary* 0 20 *Minibuf-0* 0 2037 *Echo Area 0* 0 20 *subst-char-in-string* From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 13 15:14:00 2011 Received: (at 10277) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Dec 2011 20:14:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RaYjf-0004W0-Qz for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 13 Dec 2011 15:14:00 -0500 Received: from mail-fx0-f44.google.com ([209.85.161.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RaYjd-0004Vs-LO for 10277@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 13 Dec 2011 15:13:58 -0500 Received: by faas1 with SMTP id s1so555267faa.3 for <10277@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 13 Dec 2011 12:12:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=jC45xqRDX77xD+BVlv3X8Nha4aa1QI75RnUTDO0JPn0=; b=QIoZSO0mag+IvuM3krqj2t6bTI30gRiNBgzzuEupZqpvn6rP4hhIDRH3pjibvNKH+t 6ARKo/s3ygifgXGbjv+I2nlkUp/PehbnihPRssSqGIiM5l2sS2e8XcZ3/1VUHTy7J41n Qln8BPh+UUKX1+EYNflQE1T9wZQBbK02mHNws= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.14.129 with SMTP id p1mr2795wic.8.1323807157146; Tue, 13 Dec 2011 12:12:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.170.138 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Dec 2011 12:12:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 22:12:36 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: 24.0.91; memory leak when using vm From: emacs user To: 10277@debbugs.gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -4.6 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 10277 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) here is a new memory report, perhaps this helps? emacs size is about 300Mb at this point. Garbage collection stats: ((393819 . 210587) (67307 . 146) (71862 . 15273) 4244548 1877886 (713 . 725) (1033 . 796) (227352 . 74712)) =3D> 6301104+3369392 bytes in cons cells 3230736+7008 bytes in symbols 2874480+610920 bytes in markers 11408+11600 bytes in floats 57848+44576 bytes in intervals 7275264+2390784 bytes in string headers 4244548 bytes of string chars 4244548 bytes of vector slots Total bytes in lisp objects: 32307554 (live 25873274, dead 6434280) Buffer ralloc memory usage: 61 buffers 63670 bytes total (32924 in gaps) Size Gap Name 20348 2000 *w3m cache* 4962 1783 .emacs.d 2186 987 *srecode-map-tmp* 2186 1814 *code-converting-work* 567 1571 *Buffer Details* 191 2000 *scratch* 152 1876 *Marked Files* 125 1921 *Messages* 54 1987 *extract address components* 33 2008 *canonical address* 13 7 *Deletions* 13 2042 *Echo Area 0* 10 5818 *code-conversion-work* 0 2021 *Minibuf-1* 0 20 *vm-nonexistent-summary* 0 20 *Minibuf-0* 0 2051 *Echo Area 1* 0 20 *subst-char-in-string* 0 20 *vmpc-cleanup* 0 20 *w3m-work* 0 20 *w3m-work*<3> 0 20 *w3m-work*<5> 0 20 *w3m-work*<7> 0 20 *w3m-work*<9> 0 20 *w3m-work*<11> 0 20 *w3m-work*<13> 0 20 *w3m-work*<15> 0 2044 *split* 0 20 *w3m-work*<17> 0 20 *w3m-work*<19> 0 20 *w3m-work*<21> 0 20 *w3m-work*<23> 0 20 *w3m-work*<25> 0 20 *w3m-work*<27> 0 20 *w3m-work*<29> 0 20 *w3m-work*<31> 0 20 *w3m-work*<33> 0 20 *w3m-work*<35> 0 20 *w3m-work*<2> 0 20 *w3m-work*<6> 0 20 *w3m-work*<10> 0 20 *w3m-work*<14> 0 20 *w3m-work*<18> 0 20 *w3m-work*<22> 0 20 *w3m-work*<26> 0 20 *w3m-work*<30> 0 20 *w3m-work*<34> 0 20 *w3m-work*<37> 0 20 *w3m-work*<4> 0 20 *w3m-work*<12> 0 20 *w3m-work*<20> 0 20 *w3m-work*<28> 0 20 *w3m-work*<36> 0 20 *w3m-work*<39> 0 20 *w3m-work*<41> 0 20 *w3m-work*<43> 0 20 *w3m-work*<45> 0 20 *w3m-work*<47> 0 20 *w3m-work*<49> 0 20 *w3m-work*<51> 0 20 *w3m-work*<53> On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 11:17 PM, emacs user wrote: > In GNU Emacs 24.0.91.1 (x86_64-apple-darwin11.2.0, NS apple-appkit-1138.2= 3) > =A0of 2011-11-25 on MacBook-Air.local > Windowing system distributor `Apple', version 10.3.1138 > configured using `configure =A0'--with-ns'' > > when using vm, emacs grows in size every time I read my inbox, and > eventually crashes. =A0garbage-collect has no effect. =A0memory-usage.el > gives the output below, I would be grateful for any hints on how to > identify the problem... > > [at the time of this report, emacs grew to about 200mb (using activity > monitor on the mac). =A0it's initial size was about 30mb. ] > > \Garbage collection stats: > ((470940 . 228143) (128755 . 1) (348632 . 1073) 9089641 3274519 (123 . > 1083) (4119 . 14324) (691547 . 38503)) > > =A0=3D> =A0 =A0 7535040+3650288 bytes in cons cells > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A06180240+48 bytes in symbols > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A013945280+42920 bytes in markers > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A01968+17328 bytes in floats > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0230664+802144 bytes in intervals > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A022129504+1232096 bytes in string headers > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A09089641 bytes of string chars > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A09089641 bytes of vector slots > > Total bytes in lisp objects: 68131680 (live 62386856, dead 5744824) > > Buffer ralloc memory usage: > 10 buffers > 10404 bytes total (9887 in gaps) > =A0 =A0 =A0Size =A0 =A0 =A0Gap =A0 =A0 Name > > =A0 =A0 =A0 568 =A0 =A0 =A01572 =A0 =A0*Buffer Details* > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A020 =A0 =A0 =A02045 =A0 =A0 *Echo Area 1* > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A017 =A0 =A0 =A03 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0*Custom-Work* > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 5 =A0 =A0 =A02020 =A0 =A0 *code-conversion-work* > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 0 =A0 =A0 =A020 =A0 =A0 =A0*scratch* > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 0 =A0 =A0 =A02037 =A0 =A0 *Minibuf-1* > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 0 =A0 =A0 =A020 =A0 =A0 =A0 *vm-nonexistent-summary* > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 0 =A0 =A0 =A020 =A0 =A0 =A0 *Minibuf-0* > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 0 =A0 =A0 =A02037 =A0 =A0 *Echo Area 0* > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 0 =A0 =A0 =A020 =A0 =A0 =A0 *subst-char-in-string* From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 20 19:19:52 2019 Received: (at 10277) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Sep 2019 23:19:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58768 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iBSBr-0003qi-Tn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 19:19:52 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-f173.google.com ([209.85.210.173]:46026) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iBSBp-0003qR-Qp for 10277@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 19:19:50 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-f173.google.com with SMTP id y72so5501142pfb.12 for <10277@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 16:19:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=prec2531kiLFVmFigqvARo8Mhv42oon9b2nxJQxnQ+4=; b=maHrnPkatatljrbkBpZarxItyY1y9KPR5iSAG24AO4Tcp1aynFIQsP/2kbLVp+FOm7 yoBq/4rzu+ZPofc7/yHkveWZO3FWd1o2e8RMqznJPcV+q8e/JUyRMcNHV0BsUjhAPSfs l5AeJgiFilswuFYbJjpoi0tT4DIHc2JoNNNyBR9r/5MGTiWb5Q2cPpNMWO78SzWXVEWq uCjJJ8njDXJYC/Q9UwvEkWGFoGq7ULXpPMhLBTZA/A94wc88YAhaZWY3GwKBIR8IujrW ScqWssmwmQQndFOcSZiLUcUN6sbh2079puVFcUGuRUKg+Gso2/4yQrQWBs2zKRZxPZ23 BR8w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWjvUSVyfT2AWk963tX7g9a17k8JEeL+Za/YsF4X5IeZsoMEaHM O4WQQjWtSKlaHgEJopvQZNMFIkw5p0bgUdiEVWQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzymNRh1v0LcbxYvy49GY83gdkmiwFy7G3wvkBuVPLaIqyqpdIAU0K05UIJxAUD5/HHlgQE0zRp2w8g/bFXGm0= X-Received: by 2002:a63:720f:: with SMTP id n15mr10462968pgc.198.1569021584063; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 16:19:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Stefan Kangas Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 01:19:33 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#10277: 24.0.91; memory leak when using vm To: emacs user Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 10277 Cc: 10277@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) emacs user writes: > In GNU Emacs 24.0.91.1 (x86_64-apple-darwin11.2.0, NS apple-appkit-1138.23) > of 2011-11-25 on MacBook-Air.local > Windowing system distributor `Apple', version 10.3.1138 > configured using `configure '--with-ns'' > > when using vm, emacs grows in size every time I read my inbox, and > eventually crashes. garbage-collect has no effect. memory-usage.el > gives the output below, I would be grateful for any hints on how to > identify the problem... > > [at the time of this report, emacs grew to about 200mb (using activity > monitor on the mac). it's initial size was about 30mb. ] > > \Garbage collection stats: > ((470940 . 228143) (128755 . 1) (348632 . 1073) 9089641 3274519 (123 . > 1083) (4119 . 14324) (691547 . 38503)) > > => 7535040+3650288 bytes in cons cells > 6180240+48 bytes in symbols > 13945280+42920 bytes in markers > 1968+17328 bytes in floats > 230664+802144 bytes in intervals > 22129504+1232096 bytes in string headers > 9089641 bytes of string chars > 9089641 bytes of vector slots > > Total bytes in lisp objects: 68131680 (live 62386856, dead 5744824) > > Buffer ralloc memory usage: > 10 buffers > 10404 bytes total (9887 in gaps) > Size Gap Name > > 568 1572 *Buffer Details* > 20 2045 *Echo Area 1* > 17 3 *Custom-Work* > 5 2020 *code-conversion-work* > 0 20 *scratch* > 0 2037 *Minibuf-1* > 0 20 *vm-nonexistent-summary* > 0 20 *Minibuf-0* > 0 2037 *Echo Area 0* > 0 20 *subst-char-in-string* This was reported 8 years ago, and many things have changed since then. Are you still seeing this on a modern version of Emacs? Best regards, Stefan Kangas From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 30 15:52:47 2019 Received: (at 10277-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Oct 2019 19:52:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51523 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iPu1O-00081i-Sk for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 15:52:47 -0400 Received: from giraff.fripost.org ([193.234.15.44]:41926 helo=outgoing.fripost.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iPu1M-00081T-RG for 10277-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 15:52:45 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by outgoing.fripost.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4CB3187E58A; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 20:52:38 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=x.fripost.org; h= content-type:content-type:mime-version:user-agent:message-id :in-reply-to:date:date:references:subject:subject:from:from; s= 9df9cdc7e101629b5003b587945afa70; t=1572465158; x=1574279559; bh=0pHuwnq1Er5up2J3+jn1XMipLMuhhid0yZ4iNQ7LMfQ=; b=bfjPL816oLYp elijxLDvVY3yRLplas+yfcuQGhPaUj+vKYSUv9o6wGNtqfkLftvsUgjb2Bk0oKIr KwZa/zXHaPAO/DpZAU86RZWJVVjT86DR7Mqzf76lUID3rb4P+LbNgIvxJwmpo/vF lk9egXs5T0RyHRmYNqCzqvMoENzaG6DqiDZXNu4oyp+seH5uV+8Sya5K4fD7fVpT W0juo2mfc0xo4L0KJijKH1a1vZ1xkb0L87WTcp5/fG9BHIev7WILGx0YqBNcz5nX GVuYPquF5l9IpKvhwLioBhUtleSOH+T/WPZRevUpNLshBsedOAixldjkmRhQxXBY 5R9j/T/4jw== X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at fripost.org Received: from outgoing.fripost.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (giraff.fripost.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10040) with LMTP id VGaoHKaiTd2d; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 20:52:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp.fripost.org (unknown [172.16.0.6]) by outgoing.fripost.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2F31187E586; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 20:52:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by smtp.fripost.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2E877599E9D8; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 20:52:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from skangas by joffe.skangas.se with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1iPu0m-0003Ob-0r; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 20:52:08 +0100 From: Stefan Kangas To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#10277: 24.0.91; memory leak when using vm References: Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 20:52:08 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Sat, 21 Sep 2019 01:19:33 +0200") Message-ID: <87d0eeypsn.fsf@joffe.skangas.se> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 10277-done Cc: 10277-done@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs user X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) Stefan Kangas writes: > This was reported 8 years ago, and many things have changed since then. > Are you still seeing this on a modern version of Emacs? More information was requested, but none was given within 5 weeks, so I'm closing this bug. If this is still an issue, please reopen the bug report. Best regards, Stefan Kangas From unknown Wed Sep 10 16:41:24 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 12:24:09 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator