From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 10 15:22:15 2011 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Nov 2011 20:22:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROb8Y-0003BJ-GK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:22:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROZHH-00088u-Mb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:23:10 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ROZGz-0004Gg-RE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:22:50 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20,FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, RECEIVED_FROM_WINDOWS_HOST, RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=no version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:37311) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ROZGz-0004Gc-Pm for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:22:49 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60853) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ROZGy-0001j0-Pn for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:22:49 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ROZGx-0004GG-JY for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:22:48 -0500 Received: from snt0-omc3-s51.snt0.hotmail.com ([65.54.51.88]:21459) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ROZGx-0004GA-GP for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:22:47 -0500 Received: from SNT132-W53 ([65.55.90.137]) by snt0-omc3-s51.snt0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 10 Nov 2011 10:22:45 -0800 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_72c10000-e49b-49a7-b0e1-210a2db82984_" X-Originating-IP: [81.153.245.39] From: Ian Bruntlett To: Subject: man ls Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 18:22:45 +0000 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Nov 2011 18:22:45.0596 (UTC) FILETIME=[BE4539C0:01CC9FD5] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Windows 2000 SP4, XP SP1+ X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:22:13 -0500 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) --_72c10000-e49b-49a7-b0e1-210a2db82984_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi=2C I was berating an AT&Ter at an ACCU conference a long time ago. I said that= "ls" was an example of Unix's unhelpfulness. When he told me that "ls" was= short for "list sorted"=2C I remembered it to this day. Had a look at your man page for ls - it states:- List information about the FILEs (the current directory by default). Sort entries alphabetically if none of -cftuvSUX nor --sort. Do you think it would be a worthwhile thing to let people know directly tha= t ls is short for "list sorted"? TTFN=2C Ian -- ACCU - Professionalism in programming - http://www.accu.org/ = = --_72c10000-e49b-49a7-b0e1-210a2db82984_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=2C

I was berating an AT&=3BTer at an ACCU conference a long ti= me ago. I said that "ls" was an example of Unix's unhelpfulness. When he to= ld me that "ls" was short for "list sorted"=2C I remembered it to this day.=

Had a look at your man page for ls - it states:-

List&nbs= p=3B information =3B about =3B the FILEs (the current directory by = default).
 =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B Sort entries = alphabetically if none of -cftuvSUX nor --sort.

Do you think it = would be a worthwhile thing to let people know directly that ls is short fo= r "list sorted"?

TTFN=2C


Ian

-- ACCU - Professiona= lism in programming - http://www.accu.org/
= --_72c10000-e49b-49a7-b0e1-210a2db82984_-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 10 15:36:53 2011 Received: (at 10013) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Nov 2011 20:36:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RObMj-0003a0-Hb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:36:53 -0500 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([209.132.183.28]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RObMh-0003Zn-SU for 10013@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:36:52 -0500 Received: from int-mx10.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (int-mx10.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.23]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pAAKacqx010633 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:36:38 -0500 Received: from [10.3.113.23] (ovpn-113-23.phx2.redhat.com [10.3.113.23]) by int-mx10.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pAAKabVT026497; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:36:38 -0500 Message-ID: <4EBC35D5.4060501@redhat.com> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:36:37 -0700 From: Eric Blake Organization: Red Hat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.23) Gecko/20110928 Fedora/3.1.15-1.fc14 Lightning/1.0b3pre Mnenhy/0.8.4 Thunderbird/3.1.15 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ian Bruntlett Subject: Re: bug#10013: man ls References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.68 on 10.5.11.23 X-Spam-Score: -10.3 (----------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 10013 Cc: 10013@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -10.3 (----------) On 11/10/2011 11:22 AM, Ian Bruntlett wrote: > Do you think it would be a worthwhile thing to let people know directly that ls is short for "list sorted"? I'm not sure whether modifying the .x templates to list historical trivia is worth the effort for the man pages, but it would certainly be worth mentioning this mnemonic in the info pages. Would you care to submit a patch? -- Eric Blake eblake@redhat.com +1-801-349-2682 Libvirt virtualization library http://libvirt.org From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 10 15:46:23 2011 Received: (at 10013) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Nov 2011 20:46:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RObVt-0003nV-Jg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:46:23 -0500 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([209.132.183.28]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RObVp-0003nB-Jr for 10013@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:46:19 -0500 Received: from int-mx12.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (int-mx12.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.25]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pAAKjxbR013932 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:45:59 -0500 Received: from [10.3.113.23] (ovpn-113-23.phx2.redhat.com [10.3.113.23]) by int-mx12.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pAAKjwC7025387; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:45:58 -0500 Message-ID: <4EBC3800.1080208@redhat.com> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:45:52 -0700 From: Eric Blake Organization: Red Hat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.23) Gecko/20110928 Fedora/3.1.15-1.fc14 Lightning/1.0b3pre Mnenhy/0.8.4 Thunderbird/3.1.15 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ian Bruntlett , 10013@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#10013: man ls References: , <4EBC35D5.4060501@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.68 on 10.5.11.25 X-Spam-Score: -10.3 (----------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 10013 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -10.3 (----------) [re-adding the list, so that others may review] On 11/10/2011 01:43 PM, Ian Bruntlett wrote: > > Hi Eric, > >> On 11/10/2011 11:22 AM, Ian Bruntlett wrote: >>> Do you think it would be a worthwhile thing to let people know directly that ls is short for "list sorted"? >> >> I'm not sure whether modifying the .x templates to list historical >> trivia is worth the effort for the man pages, but it would certainly be >> worth mentioning this mnemonic in the info pages. Would you care to >> submit a patch? > > Not sure how to submit a patch but here goes... Thanks for your attempt - this is a great example of diving in and proposing an alternative wording. > > Original text from info ls > > The `ls' program lists information about files (of any type, including > directories). Options and file arguments can be intermixed > arbitrarily, as usual. > > Here is a possible improvement... > > This program, called ls, an abbreviation of "list sorted", lists information about files (of any type, including > > directories). Options and file arguments can be intermixed > > arbitrarily, as usual. Reads a bit long. Maybe: The 'ls' program stands for "list sorted". It lists information about files (of any type, including directories), typically in a sorted order. Options and file arguments... -- Eric Blake eblake@redhat.com +1-801-349-2682 Libvirt virtualization library http://libvirt.org From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 10 16:32:00 2011 Received: (at 10013) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Nov 2011 21:32:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROcE3-0004qZ-P5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:32:00 -0500 Received: from joseki.proulx.com ([216.17.153.58]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROcE1-0004qR-8y for 10013@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:31:58 -0500 Received: from hysteria.proulx.com (hysteria.proulx.com [192.168.230.119]) by joseki.proulx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9168E211D1; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:31:43 -0700 (MST) Received: by hysteria.proulx.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 552A42DCD0; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:31:43 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:31:43 -0700 From: Bob Proulx To: Ian Bruntlett Subject: Re: bug#10013: man ls Message-ID: <20111110213143.GA20901@hysteria.proulx.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 10013 Cc: 10013@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) Ian Bruntlett wrote: > I was berating an AT&Ter at an ACCU conference a long time ago. I > said that "ls" was an example of Unix's unhelpfulness. When he told > me that "ls" was short for "list sorted", I remembered it to this > day. > > Had a look at your man page for ls - it states:- > > List information about the FILEs (the current directory by default). > Sort entries alphabetically if none of -cftuvSUX nor --sort. > > Do you think it would be a worthwhile thing to let people know > directly that ls is short for "list sorted"? Do you have a reference for that information? I always thought ls stood for LiSt directory. The V7 source only says "list file or directory". The man V7 page says "For each directory argument, ls lists the contents of the directory; for each file argument, ls repeats its name and any other information requested." Bob -- The palest ink is better than the strongest memory. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 10 16:33:48 2011 Received: (at 10013) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Nov 2011 21:33:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROcFn-0004tP-Aa for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:33:48 -0500 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([209.132.183.28]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROcFj-0004tC-80 for 10013@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:33:45 -0500 Received: from int-mx09.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (int-mx09.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.22]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pAALXQhc011397 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:33:26 -0500 Received: from [10.3.113.23] (ovpn-113-23.phx2.redhat.com [10.3.113.23]) by int-mx09.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pAALXQjA020703; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:33:26 -0500 Message-ID: <4EBC4326.6010009@redhat.com> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:33:26 -0700 From: Eric Blake Organization: Red Hat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.23) Gecko/20110928 Fedora/3.1.15-1.fc14 Lightning/1.0b3pre Mnenhy/0.8.4 Thunderbird/3.1.15 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ian Bruntlett , 10013@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#10013: man ls References: , <4EBC35D5.4060501@redhat.com> , <4EBC3800.1080208@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.68 on 10.5.11.22 X-Spam-Score: -10.3 (----------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 10013 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -10.3 (----------) [re-adding the list] On 11/10/2011 02:21 PM, Ian Bruntlett wrote: > > Hi Eric, > >> Reads a bit long. Maybe: >> >> The 'ls' program stands for "list sorted". It lists information about >> files (of any type, including directories), typically in a sorted order. >> Options and file arguments... > > Cool :) I much prefer your version. I'm glad you like it, but we still have to turn it into a formal patch approved by the primary maintainers. How about: From 4ef41ac0146c1a2d9b92b2304ab6cf6e6470f730 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Eric Blake Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:32:40 -0700 Subject: [PATCH] doc: mention mnemonic * doc/coreutils.texi (ls invocation): Mention "list sorted". Suggested by Ian Bruntlett. --- doc/coreutils.texi | 5 +++-- 1 files changed, 3 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-) diff --git a/doc/coreutils.texi b/doc/coreutils.texi index 2c33fe8..3831364 100644 --- a/doc/coreutils.texi +++ b/doc/coreutils.texi @@ -6368,8 +6368,9 @@ ls invocation @pindex ls @cindex directory listing -The @command{ls} program lists information about files (of any type, -including directories). Options and file arguments can be intermixed +The @command{ls} program stands for ``list sorted''. It lists +information about files (of any type, including directories), +typically in a sorted order. Options and file arguments can be intermixed arbitrarily, as usual. For non-option command-line arguments that are directories, by default -- 1.7.4.4 -- Eric Blake eblake@redhat.com +1-801-349-2682 Libvirt virtualization library http://libvirt.org From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 10 16:38:00 2011 Received: (at 10013) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Nov 2011 21:38:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROcJs-00051E-Pl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:38:00 -0500 Received: from joseki.proulx.com ([216.17.153.58]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROcJr-000518-1g for 10013@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:37:59 -0500 Received: from hysteria.proulx.com (hysteria.proulx.com [192.168.230.119]) by joseki.proulx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFF95211D1; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:37:45 -0700 (MST) Received: by hysteria.proulx.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A1F302DCD0; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:37:45 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:37:45 -0700 From: Bob Proulx To: Ian Bruntlett Subject: Re: bug#10013: man ls Message-ID: <20111110213745.GA22086@hysteria.proulx.com> References: <20111110213143.GA20901@hysteria.proulx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20111110213143.GA20901@hysteria.proulx.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 10013 Cc: 10013@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) Bob Proulx wrote: > Do you have a reference for that information? I always thought ls > stood for LiSt directory. The V7 source only says "list file or > directory". The man V7 page says "For each directory argument, ls > lists the contents of the directory; for each file argument, ls > repeats its name and any other information requested." Eric Fischer records his history of it here: http://tldp.org/LDP/LG/issue48/fischer.html Bob From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 10 19:10:53 2011 Received: (at 10013) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2011 00:10:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROehn-0008U9-6G for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 19:10:53 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROehj-0008Tv-Q4 for 10013@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 19:10:48 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B585339E8007; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:10:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j3I9ZoZkKeer; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:10:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from penguin.cs.ucla.edu (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 03407A60004; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:10:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4EBC67F3.6070203@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:10:27 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:7.0) Gecko/20110927 Thunderbird/7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Blake Subject: Re: bug#10013: man ls References: , <4EBC35D5.4060501@redhat.com> , <4EBC3800.1080208@redhat.com> <4EBC4326.6010009@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <4EBC4326.6010009@redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -3.0 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 10013 Cc: 10013@debbugs.gnu.org, Ian Bruntlett X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.0 (---) On 11/10/11 13:33, Eric Blake wrote: > +The @command{ls} program stands for ``list sorted''. I'm somewhat dubious. I never worked at Bell Labs (I was just a visitor once or twice), but I have worked with several people who did work in Bell Labs's software research group during the Unix days, and I think I would have heard about "list sorted" if that was really the reason for "ls". I suspect that the AT&Ter in question was from USG, not from the original Unix team, and that this etymology is not entirely reliable. Quite plausibly, "ls" means "list" for the same reason that "cp" means "copy" and "mv" means "move". From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 11 13:39:25 2011 Received: (at 10013) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2011 18:39:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROw0a-000356-M6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:39:25 -0500 Received: from snt0-omc1-s4.snt0.hotmail.com ([65.55.90.15]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROw0X-00034o-Su for 10013@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:39:23 -0500 Received: from SNT132-W11 ([65.55.90.7]) by snt0-omc1-s4.snt0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:38:57 -0800 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_31f48a60-a36d-4594-ac93-8d99203e33ab_" X-Originating-IP: [81.153.245.39] From: Ian Bruntlett To: , Subject: RE: bug#10013: man ls Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 18:38:57 +0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4EBC67F3.6070203@cs.ucla.edu> References: , <4EBC35D5.4060501@redhat.com> , <4EBC3800.1080208@redhat.com> <4EBC4326.6010009@redhat.com>,<4EBC67F3.6070203@cs.ucla.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Nov 2011 18:38:57.0202 (UTC) FILETIME=[2BCE4920:01CCA0A1] X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 10013 Cc: 10013@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.7 (---) --_31f48a60-a36d-4594-ac93-8d99203e33ab_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All=2C > Date: Thu=2C 10 Nov 2011 16:10:27 -0800 > From: eggert@cs.ucla.edu > To: eblake@redhat.com > CC: ianbruntlett@hotmail.com=3B 10013@debbugs.gnu.org > Subject: Re: bug#10013: man ls >=20 > On 11/10/11 13:33=2C Eric Blake wrote: > > +The @command{ls} program stands for ``list sorted''. >=20 > I'm somewhat dubious. My source was James O. Coplien at an ACCU conference in Oxford some years a= go. I didn't want to drop names. HTH=2C Ian -- ACCU - Professionalism in programming - http://www.accu.org/=20 = --_31f48a60-a36d-4594-ac93-8d99203e33ab_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All=2C

>=3B Date: Thu=2C 10 Nov 2011 16:10:27 -0800
>=3B F= rom: eggert@cs.ucla.edu
>=3B To: eblake@redhat.com
>=3B CC: ianbr= untlett@hotmail.com=3B 10013@debbugs.gnu.org
>=3B Subject: Re: bug#100= 13: man ls
>=3B
>=3B On 11/10/11 13:33=2C Eric Blake wrote:
&= gt=3B >=3B +The @command{ls} program stands for ``list sorted''.
>= =3B
>=3B I'm somewhat dubious.

My source was James O. Coplien = at an ACCU conference in Oxford some years ago. I didn't want to drop names= .

HTH=2C


Ian

-- ACCU - Professionalism in programming - http://www.accu.o= rg/

= --_31f48a60-a36d-4594-ac93-8d99203e33ab_-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 11 14:17:31 2011 Received: (at 10013) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2011 19:17:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROwbS-0003yV-Kt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:17:31 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROwbP-0003yF-HS for 10013@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:17:28 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFAAEA60004; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:17:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gN3PGjOnEkw9; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:17:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.5] (pool-71-189-109-235.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [71.189.109.235]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 45053A60001; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:17:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4EBD74AE.7000607@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:17:02 -0800 From: Paul Eggert User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110929 Thunderbird/7.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ian Bruntlett Subject: Re: bug#10013: man ls References: , <4EBC35D5.4060501@redhat.com> , <4EBC3800.1080208@redhat.com> <4EBC4326.6010009@redhat.com>, <4EBC67F3.6070203@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 10013 Cc: 10013@debbugs.gnu.org, eblake@redhat.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) On 11/11/2011 10:38 AM, Ian Bruntlett wrote: > My source was James O. Coplien at an ACCU conference in Oxford some > years ago. I didn't want to drop names. Completely understandable. Coplien is a good source, but he was at Bell Labs loooong after "ls" was created. I'd like something a little closer to the horse's mouth. The people I'm thinking about were in the Bell Labs software group during the 1970s. I'll ask one or two of them privately. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 29 15:10:41 2011 Received: (at 10013) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Nov 2011 20:10:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RVU0m-0008Go-9u for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Nov 2011 15:10:40 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RVU0i-0008Gf-OF for 10013@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Nov 2011 15:10:38 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 269FA39E8006; Tue, 29 Nov 2011 12:08:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zxjNrSuh92-9; Tue, 29 Nov 2011 12:08:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from penguin.cs.ucla.edu (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B98F1A60001; Tue, 29 Nov 2011 12:08:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4ED53BC1.5090306@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 12:08:33 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111115 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 10013@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: man ls Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -3.0 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 10013 Cc: Ian Bruntlett X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.0 (---) I did get one answer back from someone who was at Bell Labs's system group during the late 1970s, and who worked closely with one of the well-known Unix names, writing code. He wrote: "I always thought it just meant list. I don't think the question ever came up during the year I was at Bell Labs, so I don't know what everyone else thought it meant." From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 29 15:57:18 2011 Received: (at 10013) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Nov 2011 20:57:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RVUju-0000tP-5p for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Nov 2011 15:57:18 -0500 Received: from joseki.proulx.com ([216.17.153.58]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RVUjs-0000tI-Iz for 10013@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Nov 2011 15:57:17 -0500 Received: from hysteria.proulx.com (hysteria.proulx.com [192.168.230.119]) by joseki.proulx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75551211D2; Tue, 29 Nov 2011 13:55:13 -0700 (MST) Received: by hysteria.proulx.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 55BB32DCD6; Tue, 29 Nov 2011 13:55:13 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 13:55:13 -0700 From: Bob Proulx To: 10013@debbugs.gnu.org, Ian Bruntlett Subject: Re: bug#10013: man ls Message-ID: <20111129205513.GA2995@hysteria.proulx.com> References: <4ED53BC1.5090306@cs.ucla.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4ED53BC1.5090306@cs.ucla.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 10013 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) I realize the motivation to share something cool with the world is strong. But I am very worried about rewriting history as we think it ought to be written, as opposed to as it actually happened. Unless there is a good historical reference that clearly resolves the issue I think it is much better to leave things changed. I think it is too dangerous to rewrite this history. And to be honest I am as yet unconvinced of the new telling of it. Oral histories are not the most reliable. The palest ink is better than the strongest memory. Bob From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 13 18:40:00 2011 Received: (at 10013) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Dec 2011 23:40:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rabx2-0000q9-8I for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 13 Dec 2011 18:40:00 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rabwz-0000q1-Dg for 10013@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 13 Dec 2011 18:39:58 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A2BD39E800B for <10013@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 13 Dec 2011 15:38:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x2INzH1DPdmF for <10013@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 13 Dec 2011 15:38:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from penguin.cs.ucla.edu (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 28C6639E800A for <10013@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 13 Dec 2011 15:38:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4EE7E1FB.7080201@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 15:38:35 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111115 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 10013@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: man ls Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -3.0 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 10013 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.0 (---) Following up on my previous email, I got permission to say who the two people in question were. The Bell Labs visitor was Prof. Robert Uzgalis, and the person he worked with closely was Steve Bourne. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 30 04:07:08 2012 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Aug 2012 08:07:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57030 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T6zmO-0004un-2q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 04:07:08 -0400 Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.25]:33853) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T6zmL-0004uf-2I for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 04:07:06 -0400 Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.45]) by gateway1.nyi.mail.srv.osa (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED43A20DA5 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 04:05:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web5.nyi.mail.srv.osa ([10.202.2.215]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 30 Aug 2012 04:05:55 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=message-id:from:to:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:subject:date; s=smtpout; bh=g3x1YkP2vluBEiAMNfVG/RrTs8w=; b=TZifXzPLwB25W+uO3zOoS/hKp7Oe KhJauDa80k+NMovM0kYUSZt+0p/bpnOh0CKI1A233+hxUgr8wXVw3M1yaiA+SIjp 3lcXH7H2asp6p+g+dl6KDunycJuQGMWel+95+AZrDypuVZfWuzQ8lk/q3aAG3yXQ TT9u7m6/S5244xc= Received: by web5.nyi.mail.srv.osa (Postfix, from userid 99) id BD7B04C0212; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 04:05:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1346313955.6848.140661121418585.20DF5764@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Sasl-Enc: T2AqFlIWN6GQ1vxU9Q18H9U0y8luevpcLNcOSgz5PZxR 1346313955 From: era eriksson To: control@debbugs.gnu.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface Subject: Bug maintenance Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 11:05:55 +0300 X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) forcemerge 6366 10924 merge 7389 7394 tags 7394 + patch merge 7948 7963 7968 retitle 9140 [du] broken on OSX 10.7 (Lion) for >4TB file systems retitle 10003 [df] information differs from GUI retitle 10013 [ls] document origin of name tags 10013 + patch retitle 10054 [cp] 8.13: cp -au may replace newer files [sr #107876] retitle 10877 [sort] too eager to use temp files retitle 11760 [mv] data loss after ctrl-C on ntfs -> ntfs move thanks I also wanted to retitle 10900 but it's too opaque, and should be followed up. I took this out because I'm not sure I was able to summarize it correctly. retitle 10639 [cp] test-copy-acl fails on Solaris 64bit + NFS /* era */ -- If this were a real .signature, it would suck less. Well, maybe not. 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[184.68.105.38]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id a15-v6sm3468024itc.3.2018.10.09.14.12.35 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Oct 2018 14:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#10013: man ls To: 10013@debbugs.gnu.org References: <4EE7E1FB.7080201@cs.ucla.edu> From: Assaf Gordon Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 15:12:34 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4EE7E1FB.7080201@cs.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 10013 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) tags 10013 wontfix close 10013 stop (Triaging old bugs) Hello, With no further comments in 6 years, the last consensus seems to be this addition is undesired. I'm marking this as 'wontfix' and closing. Discussion can continue by replying to this thread. regards, - assaf From unknown Wed Jun 25 02:08:18 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 12:24:05 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator