GNU bug report logs - #10013
[ls] document origin of name

Previous Next

To add a comment to this bug, you must first unarchive it, by sending
a message to control AT debbugs.gnu.org, with unarchive 10013 in the body.
You can then email your comments to 10013 AT debbugs.gnu.org in the normal way.

Toggle the display of automated, internal messages from the tracker.

Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ian Bruntlett <ianbruntlett <at> hotmail.com>
To: <bug-coreutils <at> gnu.org>
Subject: man ls
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 18:22:45 +0000

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Hi,

I was berating an AT&Ter at an ACCU conference a long time ago. I said that "ls" was an example of Unix's unhelpfulness. When he told me that "ls" was short for "list sorted", I remembered it to this day.

Had a look at your man page for ls - it states:-

List  information  about  the FILEs (the current directory by default).
       Sort entries alphabetically if none of -cftuvSUX nor --sort.

Do you think it would be a worthwhile thing to let people know directly that ls is short for "list sorted"?

TTFN,


Ian

-- ACCU - Professionalism in programming - http://www.accu.org/  		 	   		  

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #8 received at 10013 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eric Blake <eblake <at> redhat.com>
To: Ian Bruntlett <ianbruntlett <at> hotmail.com>
Cc: 10013 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#10013: man ls
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:36:37 -0700

On 11/10/2011 11:22 AM, Ian Bruntlett wrote:
> Do you think it would be a worthwhile thing to let people know directly that ls is short for "list sorted"?

I'm not sure whether modifying the .x templates to list historical 
trivia is worth the effort for the man pages, but it would certainly be 
worth mentioning this mnemonic in the info pages.  Would you care to 
submit a patch?

-- 
Eric Blake   eblake <at> redhat.com    +1-801-349-2682
Libvirt virtualization library http://libvirt.org

Message #11 received at 10013 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eric Blake <eblake <at> redhat.com>
To: Ian Bruntlett <ianbruntlett <at> hotmail.com>, 10013 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#10013: man ls
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:45:52 -0700

[re-adding the list, so that others may review]

On 11/10/2011 01:43 PM, Ian Bruntlett wrote:
>
> Hi Eric,
>
>> On 11/10/2011 11:22 AM, Ian Bruntlett wrote:
>>> Do you think it would be a worthwhile thing to let people know directly that ls is short for "list sorted"?
>>
>> I'm not sure whether modifying the .x templates to list historical
>> trivia is worth the effort for the man pages, but it would certainly be
>> worth mentioning this mnemonic in the info pages.  Would you care to
>> submit a patch?
>
> Not sure how to submit a patch but here goes...

Thanks for your attempt - this is a great example of diving in and 
proposing an alternative wording.

>
> Original text from info ls
>
> The `ls' program lists information about files (of any type, including
> directories).  Options and file arguments can be intermixed
> arbitrarily, as usual.
>
> Here is a possible improvement...
>
> This program, called ls, an abbreviation of "list sorted",  lists information about files (of any type, including
>
> directories).  Options and file arguments can be intermixed
>
> arbitrarily, as usual.

Reads a bit long.  Maybe:

The 'ls' program stands for "list sorted".  It lists information about 
files (of any type, including directories), typically in a sorted order. 
 Options and file arguments...

-- 
Eric Blake   eblake <at> redhat.com    +1-801-349-2682
Libvirt virtualization library http://libvirt.org

Message #14 received at 10013 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com>
To: Ian Bruntlett <ianbruntlett <at> hotmail.com>
Cc: 10013 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#10013: man ls
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:31:43 -0700

Ian Bruntlett wrote:
> I was berating an AT&Ter at an ACCU conference a long time ago. I
> said that "ls" was an example of Unix's unhelpfulness. When he told
> me that "ls" was short for "list sorted", I remembered it to this
> day.
> 
> Had a look at your man page for ls - it states:-
> 
> List  information  about  the FILEs (the current directory by default).
>        Sort entries alphabetically if none of -cftuvSUX nor --sort.
> 
> Do you think it would be a worthwhile thing to let people know
> directly that ls is short for "list sorted"?

Do you have a reference for that information?  I always thought ls
stood for LiSt directory.  The V7 source only says "list file or
directory".  The man V7 page says "For each directory argument, ls
lists the contents of the directory; for each file argument, ls
repeats its name and any other information requested."

Bob

-- 
The palest ink is better than the strongest memory.

Message #17 received at 10013 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eric Blake <eblake <at> redhat.com>
To: Ian Bruntlett <ianbruntlett <at> hotmail.com>, 10013 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#10013: man ls
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:33:26 -0700

[re-adding the list]

On 11/10/2011 02:21 PM, Ian Bruntlett wrote:
>
> Hi Eric,
>
>> Reads a bit long.  Maybe:
>>
>> The 'ls' program stands for "list sorted".  It lists information about
>> files (of any type, including directories), typically in a sorted order.
>>    Options and file arguments...
>
> Cool :) I much prefer your version.

I'm glad you like it, but we still have to turn it into a formal patch 
approved by the primary maintainers.  How about:

From 4ef41ac0146c1a2d9b92b2304ab6cf6e6470f730 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Eric Blake <eblake <at> redhat.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:32:40 -0700
Subject: [PATCH] doc: mention mnemonic

* doc/coreutils.texi (ls invocation): Mention "list sorted".
Suggested by Ian Bruntlett.
---
 doc/coreutils.texi |    5 +++--
 1 files changed, 3 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/coreutils.texi b/doc/coreutils.texi
index 2c33fe8..3831364 100644
--- a/doc/coreutils.texi
+++ b/doc/coreutils.texi
@@ -6368,8 +6368,9 @@ ls invocation
 @pindex ls
 @cindex directory listing

-The @command{ls} program lists information about files (of any type,
-including directories).  Options and file arguments can be intermixed
+The @command{ls} program stands for ``list sorted''.  It lists
+information about files (of any type, including directories),
+typically in a sorted order.  Options and file arguments can be intermixed
 arbitrarily, as usual.

 For non-option command-line arguments that are directories, by default
-- 
1.7.4.4


-- 
Eric Blake   eblake <at> redhat.com    +1-801-349-2682
Libvirt virtualization library http://libvirt.org

Message #20 received at 10013 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com>
To: Ian Bruntlett <ianbruntlett <at> hotmail.com>
Cc: 10013 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#10013: man ls
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:37:45 -0700

Bob Proulx wrote:
> Do you have a reference for that information?  I always thought ls
> stood for LiSt directory.  The V7 source only says "list file or
> directory".  The man V7 page says "For each directory argument, ls
> lists the contents of the directory; for each file argument, ls
> repeats its name and any other information requested."

Eric Fischer records his history of it here:

  http://tldp.org/LDP/LG/issue48/fischer.html

Bob

Message #23 received at 10013 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
To: Eric Blake <eblake <at> redhat.com>
Cc: 10013 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Ian Bruntlett <ianbruntlett <at> hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: bug#10013: man ls
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:10:27 -0800

On 11/10/11 13:33, Eric Blake wrote:
> +The @command{ls} program stands for ``list sorted''.

I'm somewhat dubious.

I never worked at Bell Labs (I was just a visitor once or twice),
but I have worked with several people who did work in Bell Labs's
software research group during the Unix days, and I think I would
have heard about "list sorted" if that was really the reason for "ls".
I suspect that the AT&Ter in question was from USG, not from the
original Unix team, and that this etymology is not entirely reliable.

Quite plausibly, "ls" means "list" for the same reason that
"cp" means "copy" and "mv" means "move".

Message #26 received at 10013 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ian Bruntlett <ianbruntlett <at> hotmail.com>
To: <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>, <eblake <at> redhat.com>
Cc: 10013 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#10013: man ls
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 18:38:57 +0000

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Hi All,

> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:10:27 -0800
> From: eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu
> To: eblake <at> redhat.com
> CC: ianbruntlett <at> hotmail.com; 10013 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Subject: Re: bug#10013: man ls
> 
> On 11/10/11 13:33, Eric Blake wrote:
> > +The @command{ls} program stands for ``list sorted''.
> 
> I'm somewhat dubious.

My source was James O. Coplien at an ACCU conference in Oxford some years ago. I didn't want to drop names.



HTH,




Ian

-- ACCU - Professionalism in programming - http://www.accu.org/ 

 		 	   		  

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #29 received at 10013 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
To: Ian Bruntlett <ianbruntlett <at> hotmail.com>
Cc: 10013 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, eblake <at> redhat.com
Subject: Re: bug#10013: man ls
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:17:02 -0800

On 11/11/2011 10:38 AM, Ian Bruntlett wrote:
> My source was James O. Coplien at an ACCU conference in Oxford some
> years ago. I didn't want to drop names.
Completely understandable.  Coplien is a good source,
but he was at Bell Labs loooong after "ls" was created.
I'd like something a little closer to the horse's mouth.
The people I'm thinking about were in the Bell Labs
software group during the 1970s.  I'll ask one or two
of them privately.

Message #32 received at 10013 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
To: 10013 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Cc: Ian Bruntlett <ianbruntlett <at> hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: man ls
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 12:08:33 -0800

I did get one answer back from someone who
was at Bell Labs's system group during the
late 1970s, and who worked closely with one of
the well-known Unix names, writing code.
He wrote: "I always thought it just meant list.
I don't think the question ever came up during
the year I was at Bell Labs, so I don't
know what everyone else thought it meant."

Message #35 received at 10013 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com>
To: 10013 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Ian Bruntlett <ianbruntlett <at> hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: bug#10013: man ls
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 13:55:13 -0700

I realize the motivation to share something cool with the world is
strong.  But I am very worried about rewriting history as we think it
ought to be written, as opposed to as it actually happened.  Unless
there is a good historical reference that clearly resolves the issue I
think it is much better to leave things changed.  I think it is too
dangerous to rewrite this history.  And to be honest I am as yet
unconvinced of the new telling of it.  Oral histories are not the most
reliable.  The palest ink is better than the strongest memory.

Bob

Message #38 received at 10013 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
To: 10013 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: man ls
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 15:38:35 -0800

Following up on my previous email, I got permission
to say who the two people in question were.  The Bell
Labs visitor was Prof. Robert Uzgalis, and the person
he worked with closely was Steve Bourne.

Message #45 received at 10013 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Assaf Gordon <assafgordon <at> gmail.com>
To: 10013 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#10013: man ls
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 15:12:34 -0600

tags 10013 wontfix
close 10013
stop

(Triaging old bugs)

Hello,

With no further comments in 6 years, the last consensus seems to be this
addition is undesired.

I'm marking this as 'wontfix' and closing.
Discussion can continue by replying to this thread.

regards,
 - assaf

Previous Next

GNU bug tracking system
Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham, 1997,2003 nCipher Corporation Ltd, 1994-97 Ian Jackson.